Churlish Behavior. Goose and gander.
Expected to hear something. But no. Not a peep. Not a hoot or a holler. About either situation.
Crickets.
Must we? Being forced to take notice of them is so depressing(1931Pickford/USPD/Commons.wikimedia.org)
Why is praise so difficult?
Are accolades only to be given to those on your side? (Silence worth its’ weight in gold?)
You’d think the major women’s advocate groups – the ones who raise lots of money and push political clout – would be standing up and applauding NASCAR’s decision to suspend driver Kurt Busch indefinitely due to his pending case involving domestic violence.
Is a pat on the back being withheld because it’s, well, NASCAR? The loud rowdy events which represents Southern Culture to those who don’t know either? Don’t wanna stand anywhere near the rednecks? Can’t cotton to those good ol’ boys.
Or is it because the woman involved has guns and manages to hit her targets when she shoots? Oh, simply can’t show approval of that kind of strong woman? Or secret unspoken thoughts that maybe she deserved it? She’s really an assassin and a “bad-ass” as Kurt says? (NPR).
They do have an image to keep.
Like Stand-by-your-man Hillary who, despite that, still managed to be elected to the Senate and become the first woman Secretary of State. Oddly, she’s not cheering NASCAR which does have women drivers challenging the track. She knows Arkansas and their rough sport icons: famous boxers, car drivers, and swaggering men. You’d think she’s give a public nod encouraging NASCAR’s positive direction. Maybe her staff didn’t hand over the memo or she didn’t hear the phone ring late at night.
Where are the other high-profile women like Michelle? Those who quickly voiced protests for another country’s stolen girls. While certainly worthy of support, what about the local young girls watching violence here?
NASCAR takes a positive step against domestic violence and no applause from the sophisticated ladies’ halls?
So odd.
Only crickets. Silence. What can prod them into chatting?
Maybe if she had put away the guns and worn Daisy Dukes like in “Dukes of Hazzard? (T.Hall/Commons.wikimedia.org)
How about choices for women being threatened?
Quiet actions can easily force women back into old traditional roles they have fought to escape.
How could a University even consider their recent mandate “progress”?
“Wesleyan Fraternity Sues University After Being Forced to Accept Women.”(CBS)
Fraternities forced to go co-ed?
Look, young men, many living away from home the first time, need chance to fart, scratch, tell offensive jokes, and live like pigs if they wish. Do stupid boy things.
Young women, too. You can call it “women don’t sweat, they perspire”, but it’s all wet and stinks.
Isn’t it wise to let each group with individuals perfecting their identities have their own space to “let their hair down” among their own kind if they so choose?
Is forcing fraternities to admit women a really good idea?
You know who’s going to be stuck with keeping the place clean and presentable. (Experience based conclusion. Seriously UGH.)
It’s college. So many young-ish men have been waited on hand and foot by mom (usually a female, so the cleaning role pattern is firmly established) far too long at home.
Guys simply waiting until some poor girl gets grossed out and cleans is passive aggressive.
A bad habit to get into as adult life is beginning.
Situation teaches some men to take advantage of people.
Just reinforces those stereotyped gender roles because women will break down first when it’s totally disgusting and the guys know it.
“I don’t know what it is, but it was in the shower. Now get up there and scrub.”(1919.Mary Pickford/First Nat. Pict./USPD:pub.date/Commons.wikimedia.org)
So a university decides to take away choices for women:
- The decision to experience a tradition in a fraternity or sorority or not.
- The decision to choose co-ed living or not.
- A decision to have a clean space to call home or not.
Where are the women’s groups who defend the freedom of choice for women?
OK that’s a bit discriminating against males, so how about both males and female students should have freedom of choice.
A chance to be non co-ed if they prefer?
Nothing is more beautiful than having choices.
“OK, which of you dunderheads used up all my diet coke? Enough with your stupid Mentos and Coke explosions.” (1925MaryPickford/LOC/USPD:pub.date/Commons.wikimedia.org)
Beauty, like the concept of a “good life”, is in the eye of the beholder.
Maybe there would be more beauty in the world if people would live and let live.
And let the beauty of variety and diversity flourish freely.
And give praise when earned – even if that means praising your opponents. No ducking when that’s true.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
Phil, the Philosopher Mouse of the Hedge.
Modern traditional woman: stylish and lethal. (Annie Oakley/USPD/Commons.wikimedia.org)
And just to head off the “no group can be allowed to discriminate against race, creed, color, gender, sexual orientations…” objections bound to show up:
That concept should be extended to all clubs and organizations. Right?
Then organizations with obviously tightly focused membership might need a bit of examination, too? (Hit Google and you’ll probably be as stunned as I of so many strictly focused membership groups. This is only a tiny glimmer of the ones that exist.)
Some don’t sound real inclusive and welcoming with open membership.
- National Black Lawyers.
- BESLA. Black Entertainment and Sports Lawyers Association.
- HNBA. Hispanic National Bar Association
- NAPABA. National Asian Pacific American Bar Association
- VABA-DC. Vietnamese American Bar Association of the Greater Washington DC Area.
- VABA-NC. Vietnamese American Bar Association of N. California
- KABA-DC. Korean American Bar Association for Washington DC/metro area.
- KABA-Washington. Korean American Bar Association of Washington state.
- KABANC. Korean American Bar Association of N. California
- NAWL. National Association of Women Lawyers
- WBA-DC. Women’s Bar Association of the District of Columbia.
- 2010 Article. “Forming a Caucasian Law Enforcement Association Raises Concerns”
- Everyone gets a group and a group for everyone! Maybe.
Listed a sample of Law Associations since these groups should be very aware of any legal concerns that could face their organizations. (Especially those at the national level or in Washington, DC.)
There are similar organizations of all sorts: policemen/law enforcement, fire fighters, engineers, and more. There’s even a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce and an Asian Chamber of Commerce in Houston in addition to the main Houston Chamber of Commerce.
Everyone does have the right of assembly. That’s a free choice.
To meet with whom you choose when you choose.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
What could be more inclusive and fair than that?
How about leaving the Fraternities alone?
Seriously. Why can’t people live and let live.
And get a sense of humor. Now let’s all go watch Animal House.
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Philosopher Mouse of the Hedge 
Now I was taught horses sweat, men perspire, women glow. How about that for weasel words. Not you’re dripping and stinking but positively glowing darling.
Backlash, backlash, always backlashes. One step forwards, twenty steps back and crashing into the barrier.
I guess the welcoming limiting groups can all be classified as minorities who are discriminated against, would be my reading of that one.
An all-girls school was good. Mixed university was better, hall of residence with a ratio of 3:1 men:women was even better still.
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Ah, you know the actual wording of that saying. Shortened for the twitter age who lacks any experience with horses. One of the elegant “Golden Age of Hollywood” stars purred that line to the press once before air conditioning. She was a vision in jewels and fine clothes – and not a hair out of place in summer’s heat. Hollywood classy.
I think it’s fine to have focused groups as there is a camaraderie of shared experiences and it is good to work together to be positive examples/mentors for those coming up.
But there’s the law: no discrimination allowed…but it is and is exists in plain sight.(People obviously, then, don’t have a problem with that…unless someone gets mad at someone or wants to do a power play?)
It seems if you let one group assemble, you have to let all groups gather – and that included sororities and fraternities. (I did not join as: 1. costly, 2. I had enough to do)
I was intrigued that the Dallas police chief (African American) Here’s an article from the Dallas news with other links. He’s meeting resistance from the Latino group for one. The mentoring and community connections are points to seriously consider, but the chief’s comments are interesting, too. http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metro/20140713-dallas-chief-says-it-s-time-to-stop-segregating-police-unions-by-race.ece
However, it’s really unnecessary to force fraternities and sororities to admit the opposite sex into those brotherhoods and sisterhoods traditions. There are a choices for coed living already on campuses. Preserve choices for everyone.
During summer school sessions, many university fraternities do rent out cheap rooms for students – but it is still a frat house. (Think living in a barn. Pigpen. Smells. But it’s so cheap!)
Suspect it’s the university’s attempt to control bad behavior by mixing in “civilized” behavior of girls into the churlish male group. Sort of like seating the quiet kids around a trouble maker in elementary school. Not right. (Hey, don’t use my kid to do your job. Wrong to always use the “good” kids as tools to control/modify behavior of the troublemaker.) This is done much too often. Administrators gut it up and do your job instead of shoving it off on other kids.
Let people have choices.That’s all I ask.That’s not much.
(Can’t imagine being in a single sex school although research shows learning may be improved by those)
As you say, change does come slow, but it does happen. Humans are the oddest creatures.
Thanks for shelving a comment
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Everybody wants to be a victim. No one wants to take responsibility. And far too many people want to have control over everyone else.
I have no time for any of it, any more. This country is living in a bubble, and one of these days it’s going to get popped. It won’t be pretty when it happens, but in the end, it might actually do some good.
I really, truly was affected by my trip to Mardi Gras. What struck me was the obvious freedom of people, which was so different from the license of NOLA’s festivities. You want to drink? Have a beer. You don’t want to drink? No problem. Here — have a cigarette. You don’t smoke? That’s ok. The Courir is just for men? No one bitched. After all, the men were doing a good bit of the cooking, too. Children were everywhere, and they helped clean up without being asked. There was an obvious absence of digital devices. People were too busy living.
I’ve got a few years left, and that’s the world I intend to live in. It may take a certain amount of creativity, but I think it can be done. Dixie Rose says I can do whatever I want, as long as I keep it an all-feline dormitory.
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I really think the air is already leaking out of the balloon that no one bothered to take care of or though it would just go on forever untended. Life will weather it, but it’s going to be ugly for a bit. It sounds like you’ve found a corner of sanity (don’t tell!). You can do this. One thing about getting older you can do without like you could when college age (although the “requirements”/priorities are different now)
This mandate by the university is an attempt to add “civilizing behavior” to a wild bunch of college kids. Like the teacher surrounding a “bad” child with honor students. That’s so wrong using kids to solve an authority’s problem. Or some arrogant little snot has their nose out of joint and wants the world to run by their rules…like “who made you God or the Boss of me” as the neighborhood kids used to scream at each other. Fewer and fewer want to just get along. Live and let live- which is a philosophy that works pretty well as you noted.
Laughable now is the complaining about Joan Rivers not getting recognition/award at the Oscars last night (which I did not watch). Everyone’s winner!
Gonna be a harsh awakening someday. Thanks for sending a shout over this way
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My step-son lived with a bunch of guys in a shared house during college. No woman I know would have wanted to live in that pig sty. In fact, I don’t thinks pigs would have wanted to either.
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Yep, we had similar experiences. During summer, some frat houses rent out rooms – cheaply. Sounds great to poor college student on budget. Disgusting environment…Maybe they should advertise for free room and board for a maid..Bet no one would apply. Boys will be boys – so let them.I remember my college age brother coming home at Christmas his first semester with all his dirty clothes. My mom found his sheets literally fell apart in the washer. Apparently he didn’t wash his sheets at all thinking well, he took a bath each night, how dirty could they be? Joys of Higher Learning.
Thanks for rounding up a comment
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So, so true! The amazing part is that they grow up to be normal people.
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Just a phase that has to be done. Better there than elsewhere. Animal House? Shivers, but they make it through somehow little worse for wear. Don’t mess with success? Thanks for giggling along
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“It’s a man’s world, and you men can have it.” –Katherine Anne Porter
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Can’t put it much better than that. Thanks for tossing that into the comment bin.
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I hadn’t heard about either of these stories, but I can tell you one thing, I would NOT have wanted to live in a fraternity. Yikes. Nor would I want my daughter, too–if I had one. Of course, I never wanted to be in a sorority either. Or a dorm. That whole introvert thing. My ugly, little off-campus sleeping room was just fine by me. 🙂
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A place for everyone and every one in the place of their choice. Works for me. (and, yes, serious yuck.) Joining you in not being a joiner. Thanks for feathering the comment nest
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Always an interesting read. I think everyone should have a choice. They want to join, fine, they don’t fine too. But don’t force it. Humans are an interesting critter.
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Yep. It’s so odd. Once individuality was encourage – now it seems there’s always some group saying we all have to be exactly alike: all think alike, all support the exact same projects, all like the same shows, movies, and music (or else). How dull and boring. Certainly agree with your last statement. Thanks for joining the flock
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What an interesting read… and the comments are always just as fascinating to read. People should have a choice. And that should be the end of it. Attempting to judge, rule, control… it’s all so silly and exhausting. There are consequences to every decision and we learn or we don’t. Let people figure it out for themselves. Why can’t we just allow each other to live as they need to and experience what they need to?
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Too many people are into “smothering” mode and “I know what’s best for you – no back talk.” Funny how many times upon closer examination, people like that often have a real mess in their own lives, but would rather control/run other people’s live rather than straighten out their own. Time to push back and say MYOB along with “those in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones…”
Astute observations in your comment.Thanks for sliding by to leave a comment
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Among your post and all the comments, there was a lot of ground covered! I’ve thought for some time that women’s rights groups often have a very narrow idea of those rights–the ones they want and think everyone should have…whether everyone wants them or not? Where are they to protest the treatment of women in many Muslim countries, protesting sex trafficking, etc.? Those are much bigger issues than whether sororities and fraternities should be forced to accept those of the opposite sex.
Guess what? Men and women are NOT the same. If they were, what a boring world it would be. Why shouldn’t each group be able to spend time with others of the same group and not have to have those of the other group there? I wouldn’t want to be in a fraternity, even though most of my friends when growing up were male. Our school didn’t have either fraternities or sororities and in most cases, I don’t see much that’s positive about either. Our older daughter did join one, but she was at a conservative school and it was a very positive experience, one that’s still providing networking for her today.
Yes, there are ways we should all be treated alike…and there are probably just as many in which we wouldn’t want to be treated alike. Attempting to force everyone to be the same in all situations isn’t realistic in the least.
Your best point is the one at the end of your post and speaks volumes.
janet
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Couldn’t have asked for a comment with more insight. You certainly hit the targets. Thanks for sitting down to chat for a bit.(and thanks for reading the whole long thing.)
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My pleasure.
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If decisions are made by individuals, then choices are made. What is made by a group is not a choice but a declaration…
A “Normal” person is the sort of person that might be designed by a committee. You know, “Each person puts in a pretty color and it comes out gray.” ~Alan Sherman
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Reading this from a completely alien cultural perspective, I am baffled once again by how, in the country of ‘the melting pot’, saluting the flag, the American Dream etc etc, you imagine it can come out whole and united when you encourage all these exclusive, divisive groups. I heard the other day that there are even Black tv channels! What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, but the geese and the ganders have to do a bit of communal living to even be aware of what the other’s getting.
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More and more many here feel like we are aliens in a strange land. This is one of the largest cities and has been very international and diverse for ages and ages, so frequently I am puzzled by people by comments from other areas of the country. Life 10 years ago was so much less divisive. More people were willing to live and let live and operated by the “We can agree to disagree, but still be friends.” (I traveled a great deal with business and have a pretty broad cohort to base this on)
Those concepts seem to be disappearing as one group loudly insists everyone must think just like they do or else-opposing thoughts will be demonized, ridiculed, and smeared as “bad” in the most damaging and horrible terms.
Here there are TV channels in Spanish, Vietnamese, Chinese, and all sorts of assorted languages. (Our schools have kids who speak over 100 languages in their homes. Urdu is as common as Spanish). ACtually TV in other languages was good for me as I traveled and was picking up language – the closed captions could be put in English so it was easier to follow the dialogue while I gathered vocabulary. As long as the channels tell news with facts and not just with emotions or political agendas, probably having multi-languages on TV is good to keep everyone up to speed.
Birds of a feather can flock together and share the sky or cows and horses can get along separate but equal as in happy barns and all respectful of each other’s differences. Alike, but different and still get along…if everyone chooses to try. Right now so many seem to want to run other people’s lives….despite the previous traditions of allowing people to think and live as they wish.
Sigh. It is Backwards World in so many ways. Not much melting pot here these day…they call it a stew now. May be a bitter one?
So happy you stopped by to chat. It is a very strange world these days – even to us here.
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Powerful insight asking a variety of questions. Complex … don’t sure where to start. Fraternities taking in females? So will sororities have male members? A female can compete in a PGA event, but can a male participate in an LPGA tournament? Equal pay for equal work, absolutely … but should the women’s champ at Wimbledon get the same prize money as the men’s champ, even though their work is not the same? Toss in trafficking, abuse … .scary, but necessary discussions. And in terms of those special groups, yep … that goose & gander thing.
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What seems simple to fix is actually quite complex – and the devil’s in the details…knowing that precedents can be set and used in ways undetermined at some point the future.
Previously this part of the world spoke of unlimited choices and tolerance. Now Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss Bossy have gotten carried away telling people “what is best for them – and you do it my way or you’re a bad person/group.And if you don’t listen, I’m gonna get my big brother/dad/lawyer/political group to beat up your big/brother/dad/lawyer/political group.” It’s all getting to sound like grade school. Common sense graduated and left us all behind.
Thanks for gently placing such an astute comment in the basket
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Great point about grade school behavior. Nonetheless, no babble can justify domestic violence.
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Domestic violence is a major issue not being confronted even when it rears it’s ugly head on a very public stage – too often it’s laughed off, ignored, or excused. Where is the outcry and shunning of those attackers. NASCAR did sometime – maybe it took a little shove by public and sponsors, but they by should get recognition by women’s groups for doing more than producing PR spots. Thanks to driving that comment around this track.
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I think people should be allowed to gather in groups as they wish. It’s a complex question when a group won’t allow certain members to join. I guess with sororities and fraternities, they could have a few co-ed ones as well. So if people want to join a co-ed fraternity, the opportunity exists, but if people prefer to join an all male or all female group they also can do that. Like how colleges have co-ed floors and then all girl and all boy floors. Choices are important.
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Birds of a feather flock together. Not just a phrase. People tend to cluster among like minds/lifestyles where they can relax and not have to worry about what can or cannot be said. Nothing wrong with that. People still can mingling freely to work and live if they respect others’ ideas and traditions if all agree to be tolerant of others.
I think there are co-ed Greek organizations – and the honor fraternities are coed. We let people have favorite colors and songs, so why not preferred living arrangements at college or groups of friends? People who sit around and stir up trouble/try to run other people’s lives must not have enough to do in their own lives?
Thanks for choosing to wander this way with a comment
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It all comes down to tolerance, or at least what passes for it, and the fundamental truth that those who clamor loudest for tolerance are often the most intolerant in real situations.
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Isn’t that the oddest thing? Bossy little people. Thanks for stating it so short and sweetly.
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I don’t think I’d want to join a fraternity, even if women were permitted to do so. I don’t know why any woman would want to, but to each her own, I suppose 🙂
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I’m not sure why some think everyone has to be able join every single club. Why is it necessary to force that? Just seems bossy (and we are all loudly against bossy, now, right? Beyonce? Women’s groups?)There are plenty of groups and clubs to join – grow up and find one with like minds. Old playground rules: “Not everyone is gonna like you. And you aren’t gonna like everyone. And that’s OK. Differences make the world more interesting. Go find a group you get along with.”
Geesh, it all sound so elementary school-ish. Joining you with the not joining. Keep choices free. Thanks for gathering a comment to leave
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